So my kid joined the Cub Scouts. He loves it. His pack is filled with friends from school, and the pack leader, dad to one of the kids, is warm, personable, and willing to play British Bulldog with a gang of screaming ten-year-olds. It’s good.
But, oy vey. The Cub Scouts? Really? What about that whole homophobia and intolerance thing over at Boy Scouts of America (BSA)? I’m just sayin’.
Luckily the local pack subscribes to none of that, and since my son has a scorching good time there with his friends, we acquiesced. My beef is with the national office.
So my son needs to memorize the Boy Scout Law, which is:
“A scout is trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.”
Let’s call that TLHFCKOCTBCR for short.
This morning we chanted it in the car on the way to school to help him memorize. Boy did it get under my skin, and not just because we repeated it 3,578 times. (First of all, having kids line up and chant qualities in unison baffles me. Is that really how children become TLHFCKOCTBCR? But I digress.) It seems like BSA wants to give the kids some qualities to aspire to, some touchstones that will help them grow into men. (And by “men” they appear to mean people who can do quaint masculine things, like starting a fire and whittling wood. But again I digress.)
TLHFCKOCTBCR got under my skin because of the qualities it lists. “Kind” is good, and I suppose kindness is important to stress to young boys who are going about in quasi-military uniforms chanting things at each other. I can more or less get behind “trustworthy” and “helpful” too.
But the other TLHFCKOCTBCR qualities are whack:
Just Not a Good Idea: Brave
I suppose “brave” could be okay, but among excitable boys it is also very close to something like, “Let’s skateboard off a skyscraper.” I’m out.
Oh, the Irony: Thrifty
Nobody escapes the Boy Scout supply store without an arm-and-leg’s worth of “required” items. Any genuinely thrifty scout would immediately quit to protest the price-gouging.
Get Out of My Personality, Dude: Friendly and Cheerful
These two kill me. What if the kid is introverted? Or serious-minded? I guess we’d have to vote those losers off the island. Also, have we learned nothing about mental health? Nothing makes a depressive kid more depressed than shoveling a steaming pile of “friendly and cheerful” on his head.
The Bronx Cheer Goes to: Loyal, Courteous, Obedient
These qualities scream, “I AGREE TO BE UNDER STRICT SOCIAL CONTROL.” Who the hell wants to be “obedient” as a general principle, without an understanding of who you’re obedient to and why? Nazi Youth were obedient, for pete’s sake. “Loyal” and “courteous” are just different sides of that same coin. It pains me to hear these three coming out of my kid’s mouth, especially for the sake of an organization with more than a few whiffs of pedophilia in its history.
Worst of the Worst: Clean and Reverent
These two are heartbreaking. They were the basis of the Supreme Court case a few years back that allowed the Boy Scouts to openly discriminate. Technically, gay kids can’t be scout leaders because they aren’t “clean,” and nonreligious kids can’t because they aren’t “reverent.” (Again, I stress that our local pack includes a kid with two moms and two dads, as well as my son from our openly atheist family. Nobody gives a rat’s ass, amen.)
So, enough with tearing down TLHFCKOCTBCR. I want to prepare for the day when BSA calls and begs me to rewrite the Boy Scout Law for them. Here’s my official redraft:
“A scout is kind, inquisitive, creative, open-minded, resilient, resourceful, confident, collaborative, globally aware, honest, helpful, and just.”
I guess that would be KICORRCCGHHJ. These are the qualities I think a boy should aspire to as he grows into a man. Or a girl into a woman for that matter. Or a transgendered child into a… oh, you get the point.
Anybody want to offer another draft? Or defend TLHFCKOCTBCR?
I LOVE your version. My son wanted to be a boyscout because he thought it was going to be all about shooting arrows and camping. He didn’t like the meeting stuff. I didn’t push it. I think we would both enjoy your version of scouts better anyway.
I LOVE your version. My son wanted to be a boyscout because he thought it was going to be all about shooting arrows and camping. He didn’t like the meeting stuff. I didn’t push it. I think we would both enjoy your version of scouts better anyway.
Our son is in cub scouts (his choice) and we’ve had to change packs already (less than a year) to the one at our church. And this because our church’s pack is more open to different ideas and beliefs AND more diverse! (I could vent for hours about our first den) They are what make it what it is on a day to day basis. Additionally, this den is fun! Instead of meetings where they talk (get lectured) about stuff, they actually DO stuff. Now my biggest problem is that my daughter wants to be a Cub Scout (her Girl Scout group just isn’t that much fun 🙁 Luckily she gets to do plenty of stuff with her big brother’s den.
I will definitely agree that you cannot just choose Cub Scouts, you have to choose the pack/den and the leaders.
Our son is in cub scouts (his choice) and we’ve had to change packs already (less than a year) to the one at our church. And this because our church’s pack is more open to different ideas and beliefs AND more diverse! (I could vent for hours about our first den) They are what make it what it is on a day to day basis. Additionally, this den is fun! Instead of meetings where they talk (get lectured) about stuff, they actually DO stuff. Now my biggest problem is that my daughter wants to be a Cub Scout (her Girl Scout group just isn’t that much fun 🙁 Luckily she gets to do plenty of stuff with her big brother’s den.
I will definitely agree that you cannot just choose Cub Scouts, you have to choose the pack/den and the leaders.
I earned my Eagle rank in the BSA when I was 16 in 1996. I sound like my dad when I say this, but that was when being an Eagle meant something, not so much anymore.
The world is moving, and the values are just, if only the BSA leaders adhered to the law as strictly as they should. Their homophobia is not courteous, kind, or reverent. I am living in the UK now, and would like to get involved with the local Scouting efforts. They don’t have the same reservations and are a co-ed group. The wisdom in this is a bit dubious, but hey-ho it’s an education.
I earned my Eagle rank in the BSA when I was 16 in 1996. I sound like my dad when I say this, but that was when being an Eagle meant something, not so much anymore.
The world is moving, and the values are just, if only the BSA leaders adhered to the law as strictly as they should. Their homophobia is not courteous, kind, or reverent. I am living in the UK now, and would like to get involved with the local Scouting efforts. They don’t have the same reservations and are a co-ed group. The wisdom in this is a bit dubious, but hey-ho it’s an education.
I’m game, I’ll defend it. I’ve never been much of a boy scout fan because of the recognition they received and we girl scouts didn’t get, but I digress.
The Loyal, courteous and obedient one is what stands out most to me. We’re starting kindergarden here in Japan and those are some of the qualities stressed here. A lot of it is so that kids learn to work as a team, and be part of society. Comparing crime rate, and feeling safe, I’d totally be up for more kids learning that in the US. I can walk around by myself at 1 am anywhere here and feel safe.
As for bravery, that is where speaking up against crazy pedophiles and bad leaders comes up. It takes bravery to stand up for what you know is right, especially against people in power. That should help the boys figure out that obedience works only to a certain extent. Though, I’m sure a few skateboards off of cliffs would happen too.
Clean : well I’ve met some smelly boys, including my own two. But, maybe think of it as being true to one’s own set of moral values whatever they may be.
Thrifty : you totally have me there, seriously, how much to parents need to buy?
friendly & cheerful: Yes, depression is very serious and should not be ignored or glossed over. For the most part though people can choose to look at certain situations positively or negatively. One is more likely to be happy when they look on the bright side life, and then change the things that they can.
That all being said, I think you give a great and thoughtful alternative. The problem may be the old meaning of the words. When was the BSL written? It probably needs to be modernized.
First I would have to agree with Richard. I too earned my Eagle in 1996 and it still to this day means a lot to me. My son is in Cub Scouts now and I am trying to uphold the same values and ideals that I learned when I was a boy going through the same program.
The Scouts originated in the UK and was developed by a military minded man. If you look at the original UK version of the law, written in 1908, it makes sense to include the things that are in there. I won’t copy and paste but will include a couple of links. The first one gives a decent history on the matter. Good History
The second one is a little easier to read.
User Friendly
I would tend to agree with the thrifty comments but in our area there are uniform “closets.” That have used uniforms that scouts have outgrown that can be used for little to no expense. Our pack also has in it’s by laws that no scout will be left out due to monetary constraints. We have fundraisers throughout the year and if the scout puts in an effort most of his activities are paid for.
Reverent is a hot button issue in our household. Our pack doesn’t dwell on the religious aspect as much as some I’ve seen and this works for us. There are times though at outside events where it can become an issue.
On the whole I would entertain a revision of the Scout Law. I think that both versions listed above can be boiled down to the same set of core ideals and values.
I’m game, I’ll defend it. I’ve never been much of a boy scout fan because of the recognition they received and we girl scouts didn’t get, but I digress.
The Loyal, courteous and obedient one is what stands out most to me. We’re starting kindergarden here in Japan and those are some of the qualities stressed here. A lot of it is so that kids learn to work as a team, and be part of society. Comparing crime rate, and feeling safe, I’d totally be up for more kids learning that in the US. I can walk around by myself at 1 am anywhere here and feel safe.
As for bravery, that is where speaking up against crazy pedophiles and bad leaders comes up. It takes bravery to stand up for what you know is right, especially against people in power. That should help the boys figure out that obedience works only to a certain extent. Though, I’m sure a few skateboards off of cliffs would happen too.
Clean : well I’ve met some smelly boys, including my own two. But, maybe think of it as being true to one’s own set of moral values whatever they may be.
Thrifty : you totally have me there, seriously, how much to parents need to buy?
friendly & cheerful: Yes, depression is very serious and should not be ignored or glossed over. For the most part though people can choose to look at certain situations positively or negatively. One is more likely to be happy when they look on the bright side life, and then change the things that they can.
That all being said, I think you give a great and thoughtful alternative. The problem may be the old meaning of the words. When was the BSL written? It probably needs to be modernized.
First I would have to agree with Richard. I too earned my Eagle in 1996 and it still to this day means a lot to me. My son is in Cub Scouts now and I am trying to uphold the same values and ideals that I learned when I was a boy going through the same program.
The Scouts originated in the UK and was developed by a military minded man. If you look at the original UK version of the law, written in 1908, it makes sense to include the things that are in there. I won’t copy and paste but will include a couple of links. The first one gives a decent history on the matter. Good History
The second one is a little easier to read.
User Friendly
I would tend to agree with the thrifty comments but in our area there are uniform “closets.” That have used uniforms that scouts have outgrown that can be used for little to no expense. Our pack also has in it’s by laws that no scout will be left out due to monetary constraints. We have fundraisers throughout the year and if the scout puts in an effort most of his activities are paid for.
Reverent is a hot button issue in our household. Our pack doesn’t dwell on the religious aspect as much as some I’ve seen and this works for us. There are times though at outside events where it can become an issue.
On the whole I would entertain a revision of the Scout Law. I think that both versions listed above can be boiled down to the same set of core ideals and values.
My son is currently a First Class scout and has been in Scouting since the first grade. I have also been involved as a leader since that time. I’m glad that you pointed out that your problems are at a national level, but I think you’ve got some preconceived ideas that are clouding things a bit.
First, if your son is a Cub at any level lower than Webelos, he doesn’t need to learn the Scout Law yet, rather it would be the Law of the Pack and Cub Scout Promise which are much more suited to their age. But, you seem to be taking it’s meaning and application a bit too strictly. We teach our Scouts that every person applies the points of the Law differently. Being cheerful doesn’t mean to change your personality if you’re an introvert, it can mean performing tasks without complaining. But one of the things that I love about scouting is that it introduces boys to things that they may not otherwise experience, and sometimes that means exploring their own personalities to discover how they can better themselves through the application of the Oath and Law.
Yes, it’s a boys only organization and I personally don’t have a problem with that. In most other countries, scouting is coed, and there’s rumor that it will be happening here soon. I do have reservations about banning homosexuals, and I can tell you that I don’t know of a single time that I’ve ever heard of that even being brought up much less having someone dismissed or turned down because of sexual orientation.
There’s so few places these days for our youth to learn the values that Scouting offers, it pains me to think that those values would be watered down so that someone is not offended by them.
My son is currently a First Class scout and has been in Scouting since the first grade. I have also been involved as a leader since that time. I’m glad that you pointed out that your problems are at a national level, but I think you’ve got some preconceived ideas that are clouding things a bit.
First, if your son is a Cub at any level lower than Webelos, he doesn’t need to learn the Scout Law yet, rather it would be the Law of the Pack and Cub Scout Promise which are much more suited to their age. But, you seem to be taking it’s meaning and application a bit too strictly. We teach our Scouts that every person applies the points of the Law differently. Being cheerful doesn’t mean to change your personality if you’re an introvert, it can mean performing tasks without complaining. But one of the things that I love about scouting is that it introduces boys to things that they may not otherwise experience, and sometimes that means exploring their own personalities to discover how they can better themselves through the application of the Oath and Law.
Yes, it’s a boys only organization and I personally don’t have a problem with that. In most other countries, scouting is coed, and there’s rumor that it will be happening here soon. I do have reservations about banning homosexuals, and I can tell you that I don’t know of a single time that I’ve ever heard of that even being brought up much less having someone dismissed or turned down because of sexual orientation.
There’s so few places these days for our youth to learn the values that Scouting offers, it pains me to think that those values would be watered down so that someone is not offended by them.
Yeah; I have very fond memories of my time in the BSA, but I also have memories of being denied my Life rank because I wasn’t “morally straight” & being made aware that atheism was unacceptable to the Scouts. That is pretty repugnant, but the bigotry against sexual diversity is way worse. I hold out some hope that there will be a splinter group that will come out of the Scouts some day that isn’t founded on intolerance.
Yeah; I have very fond memories of my time in the BSA, but I also have memories of being denied my Life rank because I wasn’t “morally straight” & being made aware that atheism was unacceptable to the Scouts. That is pretty repugnant, but the bigotry against sexual diversity is way worse. I hold out some hope that there will be a splinter group that will come out of the Scouts some day that isn’t founded on intolerance.
We are an atheist family, too and tho there has been interest in Boy Scouts, the reverent part and the jibber jabber about God on the website is definitely not inclusive, despite their claims to be so. We are hesitant to let my son be exposed to that sort of thing at his age.
I was a Girl Guide – the British/Canadian women’s version of Scouting – and went from their then first level of Brownies up to Pathfinders (pre-teen/early teen). I learned a lot of interesting skills I wouldn’t otherwise being an urban kid and had a lot of fun. However, the compliant child thing was pretty annoying.
Leanne> the reverent part and the jibber jabber about God on the website is definitely not inclusive, despite their claims to be so.
If your son has an interest, I’d encourage you to attend a bit and see how much of the jibber jabber filters down to the actual unit. And if it is “lots” try one more unit just to see.
There is a difference between the way Scouting is marketed to parents (Timeless Values) and the way program is delivered to boys (Outdoor Adventure). YMMV. It’s a bit of a bait and switch, really, but the people who do the marketing (ie, website) think that the Values message is what will motivate parents.
In your case, they were right! But the motivation was counter-productive.
Honestly, every unit has to compartmentalize the values message, since no boy in history has ever joined a club in order to get his character improved. If you can stand to recite the Pledge of
Allegience all the way through, then you will likely not find anything too troubling at a Cub Scout or Boy Scout meeting.
Also, if your son’s demonstrated interest is really “Outdoor Adventure” then you might want to wait until he is 11 and try a Boy Scout Troop. In general, you’ll find more emphasis on Outdoors there.
We are an atheist family, too and tho there has been interest in Boy Scouts, the reverent part and the jibber jabber about God on the website is definitely not inclusive, despite their claims to be so. We are hesitant to let my son be exposed to that sort of thing at his age.
I was a Girl Guide – the British/Canadian women’s version of Scouting – and went from their then first level of Brownies up to Pathfinders (pre-teen/early teen). I learned a lot of interesting skills I wouldn’t otherwise being an urban kid and had a lot of fun. However, the compliant child thing was pretty annoying.
Leanne> the reverent part and the jibber jabber about God on the website is definitely not inclusive, despite their claims to be so.
If your son has an interest, I’d encourage you to attend a bit and see how much of the jibber jabber filters down to the actual unit. And if it is “lots” try one more unit just to see.
There is a difference between the way Scouting is marketed to parents (Timeless Values) and the way program is delivered to boys (Outdoor Adventure). YMMV. It’s a bit of a bait and switch, really, but the people who do the marketing (ie, website) think that the Values message is what will motivate parents.
In your case, they were right! But the motivation was counter-productive.
Honestly, every unit has to compartmentalize the values message, since no boy in history has ever joined a club in order to get his character improved. If you can stand to recite the Pledge of
Allegience all the way through, then you will likely not find anything too troubling at a Cub Scout or Boy Scout meeting.
Also, if your son’s demonstrated interest is really “Outdoor Adventure” then you might want to wait until he is 11 and try a Boy Scout Troop. In general, you’ll find more emphasis on Outdoors there.
Please keep courteous in there. You seem to be unaware: cour·te·ous
/ˈkɜrtiəs/ Show Spelled[kur-tee-uhs] Show IPA
–adjective
having or showing good manners; polite.
I’m sorry, but I’ve met too many children without manners to see courteousness as anything but good. Seriously, just last week I dealt with a child who tried to take several supplies from my craft program and several others who felt no need to say please or thank you while I helped them with their projects (because you know, that’s easier than their reading the instructions)
Please keep courteous in there. You seem to be unaware: cour·te·ous
/ˈkɜrtiəs/ Show Spelled[kur-tee-uhs] Show IPA
–adjective
having or showing good manners; polite.
I’m sorry, but I’ve met too many children without manners to see courteousness as anything but good. Seriously, just last week I dealt with a child who tried to take several supplies from my craft program and several others who felt no need to say please or thank you while I helped them with their projects (because you know, that’s easier than their reading the instructions)
So basically your argument is that the BSA is homophobic and filled with pedophiles, so the virtues espoused in the Scout Law are false.
You talk about “strict social control”? The only liberty most people these days care about is the liberty of the groin. The only reverence most people care about is the sacrament of the recycling sort. The only courtesy is ensuring no aggrieved behavior can ever be judged on its merits lest anyone be offended. The only loyalty is to equality of social outcome.
As for the tolerance of atheists, why would they want to be part of the Cub Scouts anyway? Start your own alternative, seriously, and show reverence to Al Gore or whoever. And I’ve met very few atheists with any courtesy about or tolerance for Christian theology.
ElZarcho, you have aptly described the modern western ethos. It is sad that the most eloquent and outspoken people on the internet are usually the ones defending perversion, godlessness, and moral relativity. I guess the saints are too busy.
So basically your argument is that the BSA is homophobic and filled with pedophiles, so the virtues espoused in the Scout Law are false.
You talk about “strict social control”? The only liberty most people these days care about is the liberty of the groin. The only reverence most people care about is the sacrament of the recycling sort. The only courtesy is ensuring no aggrieved behavior can ever be judged on its merits lest anyone be offended. The only loyalty is to equality of social outcome.
As for the tolerance of atheists, why would they want to be part of the Cub Scouts anyway? Start your own alternative, seriously, and show reverence to Al Gore or whoever. And I’ve met very few atheists with any courtesy about or tolerance for Christian theology.
ElZarcho, you have aptly described the modern western ethos. It is sad that the most eloquent and outspoken people on the internet are usually the ones defending perversion, godlessness, and moral relativity. I guess the saints are too busy.
I see where you’re coming from with the “scout laws”. Just like much of any other document created decade (centuries?) ago, it can be slightly outdated. I think the important thing to get out of scouting is a different perspective (than what you might get from the “normal” activities such as sports or music). There are very few who stick it out after it’s no longer “cool” and you have to do more than simply build derby cars and play with friends. I spent 10+ years in scouting and after a long (and quite exhausting at times) journey, I finally finished. One of my proudest moments.
And as to the issue of BSA and intolerance, I think it’s safe to say that most local scouting/troops (a majority of scouting) don’t fit the mold of the “corporate scouting” view. Meaning, they are VERY tolerant of individuals and being expressive. Even more so, they’re tolerant of being an individual within a larger group (something many fail to learn how to do).
anyways, nice post and i’d encourage you to get as much out of it as possible. it can be a very positive experience 🙂
I see where you’re coming from with the “scout laws”. Just like much of any other document created decade (centuries?) ago, it can be slightly outdated. I think the important thing to get out of scouting is a different perspective (than what you might get from the “normal” activities such as sports or music). There are very few who stick it out after it’s no longer “cool” and you have to do more than simply build derby cars and play with friends. I spent 10+ years in scouting and after a long (and quite exhausting at times) journey, I finally finished. One of my proudest moments.
And as to the issue of BSA and intolerance, I think it’s safe to say that most local scouting/troops (a majority of scouting) don’t fit the mold of the “corporate scouting” view. Meaning, they are VERY tolerant of individuals and being expressive. Even more so, they’re tolerant of being an individual within a larger group (something many fail to learn how to do).
anyways, nice post and i’d encourage you to get as much out of it as possible. it can be a very positive experience 🙂
I’m an Eagle Scout – earned the rank in 1990. I grew up in Scouts and loved it. I was from a very religious family and we lived in a small town. I knew know gay people, although I realize now that one Scout in my troop was obviously gay. i had no problems with the Scout Oath at the time.
But times change. I grew up, became an atheist, and found that gay people are some of the finest people I’ve ever met. So I do have a very big problem with the oath now. I think it stinks. I don’t feel comfortable with it at all anymore. Also, I have a young son with Down syndrome. I know that scouting will offer him a chance to have great experiences, and I could even see me being his Scout leader, but I’m not sure if the Scouts will accept me. I’m not interested in pretending I believe in God for the Boy Scouts or anyone else. I’m not interested in reciting any oath that forces me to say it. It’s a bit of a conundrum for me.
Wouldn’t it be nice if the Scouts could just be a fun and inclusive group, open to all boys equally?
I’m an Eagle Scout – earned the rank in 1990. I grew up in Scouts and loved it. I was from a very religious family and we lived in a small town. I knew know gay people, although I realize now that one Scout in my troop was obviously gay. i had no problems with the Scout Oath at the time.
But times change. I grew up, became an atheist, and found that gay people are some of the finest people I’ve ever met. So I do have a very big problem with the oath now. I think it stinks. I don’t feel comfortable with it at all anymore. Also, I have a young son with Down syndrome. I know that scouting will offer him a chance to have great experiences, and I could even see me being his Scout leader, but I’m not sure if the Scouts will accept me. I’m not interested in pretending I believe in God for the Boy Scouts or anyone else. I’m not interested in reciting any oath that forces me to say it. It’s a bit of a conundrum for me.
Wouldn’t it be nice if the Scouts could just be a fun and inclusive group, open to all boys equally?
My son is in Cub Scouts. New this year. I am so impressed with the Pack and the Den and the involved parents. While I can understand some things that people are concerned about, I love the fact that every adult greets every boy by name and shakes his hand.
Also, I don’t have any problems with my son being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. If only some of politicians, teachers, leaders, parents, etc. would undertake this motto as their own.
My son is in Cub Scouts. New this year. I am so impressed with the Pack and the Den and the involved parents. While I can understand some things that people are concerned about, I love the fact that every adult greets every boy by name and shakes his hand.
Also, I don’t have any problems with my son being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. If only some of politicians, teachers, leaders, parents, etc. would undertake this motto as their own.
I’m also an atheist, and I completely agree with the idea that the BSA are stuck in the past with regards to diversity and their stance on homosexuality – especially since they are supposed to be founded on Christian values. Those values include showing acceptance and brotherly love, and not passing judgement. I refuse to expect a Chistian organization to break ties with their founding faith, but it would be nice if the governing body didn’t pick and choose which tenets of the faith they would uphold.
Moving on, I cannot understand your issues with the other values you mentioned. Brave? I hope my boys grow up to be brave – to do the right thing even when they are scared, and stand up for what they believe in. You would have to worry a lot less about “strict social control” if you raised your children to be brave. Along those lines, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to automatically tie in loyalty, obedience, and courtesy with social control. It doesn’t take anything from a person to be nice, and frankly, more parents should put an effort into raising courteous children. I know I do. Obedience is another one – it doesn’t come from a bottle, in handy pill form. It comes from providing structure and parameters while your child learns how to make good decisions and understands the consequences of bad ones. Loyalty – another value that has been tossed aside by our society, unfortunately. Once upon a time, being considered “loyal” wasn’t a bad thing. It’s just become so acceptable to jump ship whenever something doesn’t go our way, whether it’s a job, a relationship, etc.
I don’t think it’s even necessary to have to defend why being kind and friendly would be important values to instill in a child.
I can understand your frustration at the politics of the organization, but attacking the individual values, which for the most part are very good, age appropriate values, is kind of, oh, what’s the word I’m looking for…? Whack.
I’m also an atheist, and I completely agree with the idea that the BSA are stuck in the past with regards to diversity and their stance on homosexuality – especially since they are supposed to be founded on Christian values. Those values include showing acceptance and brotherly love, and not passing judgement. I refuse to expect a Chistian organization to break ties with their founding faith, but it would be nice if the governing body didn’t pick and choose which tenets of the faith they would uphold.
Moving on, I cannot understand your issues with the other values you mentioned. Brave? I hope my boys grow up to be brave – to do the right thing even when they are scared, and stand up for what they believe in. You would have to worry a lot less about “strict social control” if you raised your children to be brave. Along those lines, I think it’s a bit of a stretch to automatically tie in loyalty, obedience, and courtesy with social control. It doesn’t take anything from a person to be nice, and frankly, more parents should put an effort into raising courteous children. I know I do. Obedience is another one – it doesn’t come from a bottle, in handy pill form. It comes from providing structure and parameters while your child learns how to make good decisions and understands the consequences of bad ones. Loyalty – another value that has been tossed aside by our society, unfortunately. Once upon a time, being considered “loyal” wasn’t a bad thing. It’s just become so acceptable to jump ship whenever something doesn’t go our way, whether it’s a job, a relationship, etc.
I don’t think it’s even necessary to have to defend why being kind and friendly would be important values to instill in a child.
I can understand your frustration at the politics of the organization, but attacking the individual values, which for the most part are very good, age appropriate values, is kind of, oh, what’s the word I’m looking for…? Whack.
I really feel that the Scouts are good organization that strives to teach kids good, basic life skills and values. Some of comments give the WTF feeling though.
“Just Not a Good Idea: Brave” – Besides skateboarding off a skyscraper, brave means standing up for ones ideas, even in the face of ridicule, etc. Would you rather they teach cowardice?
“Oh, the Irony: Thrifty” – Yes, they require uniforms and books and the scouts need to fund the operations. The uniforms can be used for a couple of years if you buy them a little big, oh and they can be had for far less than the Nintendo DS and a game. I believe the lessons learned in scouts far outweigh the video game of the week. We are typically able to put together weekend camps for our scouts for about $15ea, which includes meals. That’s cheaper and money better spent than spending 2 hours watching “Tangled” and chomping buttered popcorn.
“Get Out of My Personality, Dude: Friendly and Cheerful” – Should we be telling them to be rude and angry? Just because a kid is Introverted or serious-minded, they too can benefit from being friendly to people or trying to be a bit cheerful. Likewise if the kids surrounding them are having fun, they might just have some fun too. Scouting is a social activity, if they don’t like being around others, maybe they can start a club called something like the “Introverted or Serious-minded Club” if it more of their taste. Out in the “real world” there might be a time when they run across friendly or cheerful people, they should probably get used to having to deal with this when they are young.
“The Bronx Cheer Goes to: Loyal, Courteous, Obedient” – Loyalty is not a bad trait to have. Friends, family members and siblings appreciate it on occasion. I’m sorry that they it pains you to hear you child say the word “Courteous”. I suppose “Self-Serving” would be a good alternative? I don’t know. As far as “Obedient”, don’t you expect your kids to obey what you say, or is that optional for them as well? And as far as the pedophilia thing, there are wacko’s in this world. The scouts do what they can to reduce this sort of thing, but freaks sneak in sometimes. Hopefully the scout will be brave (hmmm, where have we heard that word before?), stand up to the wacko, rather than being “UNDER STRICT SOCIAL CONTROL”, and report the offender.
The Boy Scout Law is simply saying these are good traits to have, it doesn’t say you are worshiping the organization.
“Worst of the Worst: Clean and Reverent” – You do know that the Boy Scouts are based on a Christian organization, right? Nobody is forcing you to go. In addition, when prayers are said before meals at camp, nobody is forced in to saying them. Typically this is even preempted by a statement to the effect of “Worship however your faith dictates” so as to not exclude folks of different faiths. This can include Christians, Muslims, or even the “Grand order of the Mighty Oompa-Loompa’s”. Please, pray to the great Willy Wonka, we won’t care. This is part of religious tolerance.
Speaking of tolerance, the issue of homophobia is always a hot topic. The World English Dictionary defines homophobia as “intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality”. The Scouts do not have an intense hatred or fear of homosexuals of homosexuality, however as an organization they don’t agree with it. You can disagree with something without having an intense hatred or fear of it, right?
Every organization, from small to large, has their own values and culture. The Boy Scouts help teach and reinforce the values I already happen to have, it’s not a re-education program as you seem to allude to. If the organization doesn’t reflect yours, why not start, or find one that does?
Well Said. I am a 50 year veteran of the BSA. It is not just the words of the Law, but the interpretation that is given to the law (as you have done so well). So it can be relevant today although the law was written in 1908.
Yes, the organization at times seems “religious” because of the belief that everyone needs to believe in a greater power, whatever you may call him/her. Also, most units are sponsored by religious organizations, so if that doesn’t suit you, find one sponsored by a community organization.
But boys are taught to be tolerant of all beliefs.
I alsways have trouble with those who find fault with the BSA but want to change it to agree with them. If you want a youth organization for atheists, then start one. Other groups such as the Royal Rangers were begun by someone who disagreed with the BSA.
I really feel that the Scouts are good organization that strives to teach kids good, basic life skills and values. Some of comments give the WTF feeling though.
“Just Not a Good Idea: Brave” – Besides skateboarding off a skyscraper, brave means standing up for ones ideas, even in the face of ridicule, etc. Would you rather they teach cowardice?
“Oh, the Irony: Thrifty” – Yes, they require uniforms and books and the scouts need to fund the operations. The uniforms can be used for a couple of years if you buy them a little big, oh and they can be had for far less than the Nintendo DS and a game. I believe the lessons learned in scouts far outweigh the video game of the week. We are typically able to put together weekend camps for our scouts for about $15ea, which includes meals. That’s cheaper and money better spent than spending 2 hours watching “Tangled” and chomping buttered popcorn.
“Get Out of My Personality, Dude: Friendly and Cheerful” – Should we be telling them to be rude and angry? Just because a kid is Introverted or serious-minded, they too can benefit from being friendly to people or trying to be a bit cheerful. Likewise if the kids surrounding them are having fun, they might just have some fun too. Scouting is a social activity, if they don’t like being around others, maybe they can start a club called something like the “Introverted or Serious-minded Club” if it more of their taste. Out in the “real world” there might be a time when they run across friendly or cheerful people, they should probably get used to having to deal with this when they are young.
“The Bronx Cheer Goes to: Loyal, Courteous, Obedient” – Loyalty is not a bad trait to have. Friends, family members and siblings appreciate it on occasion. I’m sorry that they it pains you to hear you child say the word “Courteous”. I suppose “Self-Serving” would be a good alternative? I don’t know. As far as “Obedient”, don’t you expect your kids to obey what you say, or is that optional for them as well? And as far as the pedophilia thing, there are wacko’s in this world. The scouts do what they can to reduce this sort of thing, but freaks sneak in sometimes. Hopefully the scout will be brave (hmmm, where have we heard that word before?), stand up to the wacko, rather than being “UNDER STRICT SOCIAL CONTROL”, and report the offender.
The Boy Scout Law is simply saying these are good traits to have, it doesn’t say you are worshiping the organization.
“Worst of the Worst: Clean and Reverent” – You do know that the Boy Scouts are based on a Christian organization, right? Nobody is forcing you to go. In addition, when prayers are said before meals at camp, nobody is forced in to saying them. Typically this is even preempted by a statement to the effect of “Worship however your faith dictates” so as to not exclude folks of different faiths. This can include Christians, Muslims, or even the “Grand order of the Mighty Oompa-Loompa’s”. Please, pray to the great Willy Wonka, we won’t care. This is part of religious tolerance.
Speaking of tolerance, the issue of homophobia is always a hot topic. The World English Dictionary defines homophobia as “intense hatred or fear of homosexuals or homosexuality”. The Scouts do not have an intense hatred or fear of homosexuals of homosexuality, however as an organization they don’t agree with it. You can disagree with something without having an intense hatred or fear of it, right?
Every organization, from small to large, has their own values and culture. The Boy Scouts help teach and reinforce the values I already happen to have, it’s not a re-education program as you seem to allude to. If the organization doesn’t reflect yours, why not start, or find one that does?
Well Said. I am a 50 year veteran of the BSA. It is not just the words of the Law, but the interpretation that is given to the law (as you have done so well). So it can be relevant today although the law was written in 1908.
Yes, the organization at times seems “religious” because of the belief that everyone needs to believe in a greater power, whatever you may call him/her. Also, most units are sponsored by religious organizations, so if that doesn’t suit you, find one sponsored by a community organization.
But boys are taught to be tolerant of all beliefs.
I alsways have trouble with those who find fault with the BSA but want to change it to agree with them. If you want a youth organization for atheists, then start one. Other groups such as the Royal Rangers were begun by someone who disagreed with the BSA.
It sounds like it is more a problem with the individual packs/troops. I never did make it all the way to Eagle but I did have lots of fun and learned many skills that I would not have learned otherwise. Many of which I still use today. My troop was probably one of the more relaxed and the scout law was something you had to be able to recite, but not taken nearly as seriously as you are taking it. I may concede slightly with ‘brave’, and I do see the irony with ‘thrifty’, but you may also be reading into the rest a bit too deep.
Being thrifty may be ironic, but it not a bad thing for a young boy to learn. Having a four year old son, I know what it is like to go to the store as soon as he gets a little money only to be disappointed in the selection of $5 toys.
Friendly and cheerful are not completely about personality. Friendly can be about accepting others and not being mean or a bully. Being a parent I’m sure you are aware how much of a problem bullies can be. I would have to agree with Todd that cheerful could also mean to do your work without complaining. We all had our jobs to do (including cleaning the latrine) and everyone had a more enjoyable time without constant complaining about it.
Being loyal, courteous and obedient isn’t all about brainwashing your children. They don’t say be loyal to the BSA or loyal to your troop leader, just loyal. We all prefer friends that are loyal. Don’t go behind others backs… goes along with being trustworthy. I would agree with Momo that courteous is good as well. I read it as thinking of others being polite. Hold the door for the older woman behind you, don’t belch at the dinner table… etc. And I have the same argument for obedient that I did with loyal. Obedient to your parents, troop leader, or others isn’t always brainwashing, it is respecting those who have more experience and knowledge. I think Soybeanlover said it best that as with all these items, obedience has it’s limits and it is our job as parents (not the BSA’s job) to educate our children on what is appropriate and that it is OK to speak out about things they are uncomfortable with.
Lastly, clean and reverent. In my troop, clean had nothing to do with moral purity. It was plain and simple cleanliness. No one was ever even questioned about sexuality or anything like that, but they did make sure there wasn’t dirt under your nails! And reverence isn’t always a religious ideal either. It is about respect… from dictionary.com “Feeling or showing deep and solemn respect.” As with loyal and obedient, it is up to us as parents to teach our children where to place their loyalty, obedience, and reverence.
In closing… I think we all need to lighten up a little. Don’t read into everything so literally, and remember that the English language can have multiple meanings for one word. The original poster made a very important observation. Their child is having fun. As long as they are doing so in a safe way, what else matters? Remember that everything your child memorizes doesn’t mean they will live by that absolutely. They have to memorize facts about the holocaust for history class but that doesn’t mean they will grow up to be the next Hitler. Lastly, we as parents are ultimately responsible for the morals we instill in our children. Not the babysitter, not teachers, not the BSA. If you don’t like the morals they are learning, then get a new babysitter, school or troop. Or better yet, use it as an opportunity to teach your child about the different views in the world and reinforce what is right.
It sounds like it is more a problem with the individual packs/troops. I never did make it all the way to Eagle but I did have lots of fun and learned many skills that I would not have learned otherwise. Many of which I still use today. My troop was probably one of the more relaxed and the scout law was something you had to be able to recite, but not taken nearly as seriously as you are taking it. I may concede slightly with ‘brave’, and I do see the irony with ‘thrifty’, but you may also be reading into the rest a bit too deep.
Being thrifty may be ironic, but it not a bad thing for a young boy to learn. Having a four year old son, I know what it is like to go to the store as soon as he gets a little money only to be disappointed in the selection of $5 toys.
Friendly and cheerful are not completely about personality. Friendly can be about accepting others and not being mean or a bully. Being a parent I’m sure you are aware how much of a problem bullies can be. I would have to agree with Todd that cheerful could also mean to do your work without complaining. We all had our jobs to do (including cleaning the latrine) and everyone had a more enjoyable time without constant complaining about it.
Being loyal, courteous and obedient isn’t all about brainwashing your children. They don’t say be loyal to the BSA or loyal to your troop leader, just loyal. We all prefer friends that are loyal. Don’t go behind others backs… goes along with being trustworthy. I would agree with Momo that courteous is good as well. I read it as thinking of others being polite. Hold the door for the older woman behind you, don’t belch at the dinner table… etc. And I have the same argument for obedient that I did with loyal. Obedient to your parents, troop leader, or others isn’t always brainwashing, it is respecting those who have more experience and knowledge. I think Soybeanlover said it best that as with all these items, obedience has it’s limits and it is our job as parents (not the BSA’s job) to educate our children on what is appropriate and that it is OK to speak out about things they are uncomfortable with.
Lastly, clean and reverent. In my troop, clean had nothing to do with moral purity. It was plain and simple cleanliness. No one was ever even questioned about sexuality or anything like that, but they did make sure there wasn’t dirt under your nails! And reverence isn’t always a religious ideal either. It is about respect… from dictionary.com “Feeling or showing deep and solemn respect.” As with loyal and obedient, it is up to us as parents to teach our children where to place their loyalty, obedience, and reverence.
In closing… I think we all need to lighten up a little. Don’t read into everything so literally, and remember that the English language can have multiple meanings for one word. The original poster made a very important observation. Their child is having fun. As long as they are doing so in a safe way, what else matters? Remember that everything your child memorizes doesn’t mean they will live by that absolutely. They have to memorize facts about the holocaust for history class but that doesn’t mean they will grow up to be the next Hitler. Lastly, we as parents are ultimately responsible for the morals we instill in our children. Not the babysitter, not teachers, not the BSA. If you don’t like the morals they are learning, then get a new babysitter, school or troop. Or better yet, use it as an opportunity to teach your child about the different views in the world and reinforce what is right.
As far as I know, Boy Scouts is a private organization. If they have a set of standards that they believe members should follow, then let them. There are many other groups kids can join and learn about leadership, citizenship, cooperation, hard work, and community service (to name a few). 4-H comes to mind. It would be sad to force a private organization that has a pretty good track record of helping boys grow into fine young men to follow a different set of ideals just because the current ones are politically correct. I guess my point is that, although I don’t disagree with much of what was said here, I also don’t feel I (or any government body) should demand that Scouting be anything other than what it is. It’s not that different from demanding that an atheist teach “intelligent design” in the classroom, in the name of tolerance. If I disagree with the core values of an organization, I have the freedom to go do something else. It’s not my “right” to participate in a private group and it’s not my “right” to force them to change because it makes me uncomfortable. The “tolerance” argument should not be a defense for one side only. It should apply equally across the board.
As far as I know, Boy Scouts is a private organization. If they have a set of standards that they believe members should follow, then let them. There are many other groups kids can join and learn about leadership, citizenship, cooperation, hard work, and community service (to name a few). 4-H comes to mind. It would be sad to force a private organization that has a pretty good track record of helping boys grow into fine young men to follow a different set of ideals just because the current ones are politically correct. I guess my point is that, although I don’t disagree with much of what was said here, I also don’t feel I (or any government body) should demand that Scouting be anything other than what it is. It’s not that different from demanding that an atheist teach “intelligent design” in the classroom, in the name of tolerance. If I disagree with the core values of an organization, I have the freedom to go do something else. It’s not my “right” to participate in a private group and it’s not my “right” to force them to change because it makes me uncomfortable. The “tolerance” argument should not be a defense for one side only. It should apply equally across the board.
Wow, another Internet-targeted, snarktastic “let’s read this list and put the worst possible spin on every item” article.
Not original. Not even good. Sorry. There’s no serious discussion about the merits of the values listed, just a laundry list of quasi-ironic, hipsterish objections to any kind of attitude that might, viewed edgewise, be qualified as “traditional.”
Wow, another Internet-targeted, snarktastic “let’s read this list and put the worst possible spin on every item” article.
Not original. Not even good. Sorry. There’s no serious discussion about the merits of the values listed, just a laundry list of quasi-ironic, hipsterish objections to any kind of attitude that might, viewed edgewise, be qualified as “traditional.”
I was bullied more in Cub Scouts than anywhere else in my entire childhood experience – in two different packs in two different states. In both, the bullying had the tacit endorsement of adult leaders. I left after two years, despite the fact that I loved the activities and the discipline of the environment. (I later went to West Point and served as a combat arms officer in the Army.)
As a mom of three boys (and one girl) today, I would discourage my children from participating in any BSA-affiliated activity because of the institutional homophobia and the inherent hypocrisy Kate described so well in this post. That said, I affirm your decision to allow your son to participate, Kate. I think one of the most valuable lessons you’re teaching him here is how to view all of society’s institution’s with a critical eye. That’s a valuable skill — and a true virtue — for any child to develop.
I’m curious, how were you in Cub Scouts if you are female?
I’m transsexual, Lance – assigned male at birth and later transitioned to female – so I had lots of “typically male” youth experiences. Cub Scouts was one of the worst.
I was bullied more in Cub Scouts than anywhere else in my entire childhood experience – in two different packs in two different states. In both, the bullying had the tacit endorsement of adult leaders. I left after two years, despite the fact that I loved the activities and the discipline of the environment. (I later went to West Point and served as a combat arms officer in the Army.)
As a mom of three boys (and one girl) today, I would discourage my children from participating in any BSA-affiliated activity because of the institutional homophobia and the inherent hypocrisy Kate described so well in this post. That said, I affirm your decision to allow your son to participate, Kate. I think one of the most valuable lessons you’re teaching him here is how to view all of society’s institution’s with a critical eye. That’s a valuable skill — and a true virtue — for any child to develop.
I’m curious, how were you in Cub Scouts if you are female?
I’m transsexual, Lance – assigned male at birth and later transitioned to female – so I had lots of “typically male” youth experiences. Cub Scouts was one of the worst.
I think it’s great that you’re really examining the requirements and rituals in Scouting — after all, without thinking about the things we’re saying, what meaning can these things really have in our lives?
While you’re evaluating Scouting, though, I’d ask that you do two things.
First, consider that there’s an explanation for each of the points of the Law that doesn’t, in fact, sound all that crazy. This page has the meaning of the Law as shown in the 1998 printing of the BSA manual (there’s a newer version of the manual now, but I doubt if this part of it has changed substantially):
http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bslaw.asp
Let’s pick up a couple of these and look at them. Brave, as it turns out, doesn’t have anything to do with riding skateboards off skyscrapers. It does, however, describe the sort of behavior that Scouts at an Iowa BSA camp demonstrated when a tornado tore through their camp:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25107608/
I don’t know about you, but if I were caught in an emergency, I’d be pretty thankful to be surrounded by brave young men who were trained in First Aid and Emergency Preparedness (Eagle-required merit badges).
How about Friendly? (“He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.”) Since when is that something to take issue with? Listen, I understand introverted. Introverted, though, doesn’t give you license to be mean to people. Maybe it would help to think of “Friendly” as “don’t be mean.”
Courteous. (“He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.”) The next time you’re out on the road, pause to consider whether that experience could be better with a little more courtesy in the world.
I guess my point with all of these is that if you’re looking for the worst possible connotation of each of these words, then you can find fault with just about every one of them. If you’re really Doing Your Best (which is, in fact, part of Cub Scouts), then you’re looking for the best in all of the points of the Law, and you’re looking for the best in the people around you.
The second think I’d like to ask of you is that you remember that although Scouting is an international organization, you’ll find that there’s a lot of local variation and influence, including the influence that you can have on your son and any organization he’s a part of.
In my experience, kids whose parents are an active part of their boys’ Scouting experience are more involved in Scouts and happier in Scouts. This also helps you stay connected with your son’s progress, surroundings, and experiences, which strengthens your ties to your son.
It’s really important, when picking a Scouting organization for your son, that you consider at least a couple different Packs or Troops and choose one that’s a good fit for your son. You may see that some Troops pick outings and activities that aren’t really up your son’s alley, but others are more compatible. If religion is a hot button for you, you’ll find that some organizations are a lot more religiously-focused, and some really de-emphasize it. Shop around, because your experience will vary greatly from organization to organization.
Once you’ve picked an organization, you can do a lot to help it move in a direction you consider positive by getting involved. Sit on the Troop Committee, or maybe sign up to be a merit badge counselor. Incidentally, you’ll immediately learn about the practices in place in the BSA that are intended to deal with the pedophilia incidents you cited. In the case of my son’s Troop, nothing could increase my personal comfort level more than spending time in meetings and campouts and witnessing how seriously his Troop treats safety procedures, including two-deep leadership practices. Knowledge is power, and you’ll have a lot more tangible knowledge if you’re present in your son’s organization.
How much better could Scouting be if you got involved and made the good parts of it better? I understand that there are parts of Scouting that are arbitrarily exclusionary, and I think Scouting would be a better, more relevant organization if it found a way to deal with those issues. Like any large organization, though, it’s going to take time to make changes, and you’ll have far more influence as a positively-oriented example of the best Scouting has to offer.
In the mean time, Scouting is doing a lot to help a lot of boys grow into really awesome young men. It’s difficult to appreciate that until you see a clumsy, awkward, introverted kid enter Scouting and grow into a confident, worthy leader, but it’s as clear as day when you attend an Eagle Scout Court of Honor.
I hope you have a chance to see that growth in your own boys.
What Mr. Lambert said. Good stuff. (Sorry I didn’t call out this fine post — it appeared while I was composing mine, below.)
Very well written! I completely agree with everything Mr. Lambert said. I have seen the same growth with my sons and their friends, and it is a good thing all around.
I would very much also recommend looking around for a unit that works for your son (and you). Most towns have two or more Packs and at least one Troop, so there is usually a choice.
I think it’s great that you’re really examining the requirements and rituals in Scouting — after all, without thinking about the things we’re saying, what meaning can these things really have in our lives?
While you’re evaluating Scouting, though, I’d ask that you do two things.
First, consider that there’s an explanation for each of the points of the Law that doesn’t, in fact, sound all that crazy. This page has the meaning of the Law as shown in the 1998 printing of the BSA manual (there’s a newer version of the manual now, but I doubt if this part of it has changed substantially):
http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bslaw.asp
Let’s pick up a couple of these and look at them. Brave, as it turns out, doesn’t have anything to do with riding skateboards off skyscrapers. It does, however, describe the sort of behavior that Scouts at an Iowa BSA camp demonstrated when a tornado tore through their camp:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25107608/
I don’t know about you, but if I were caught in an emergency, I’d be pretty thankful to be surrounded by brave young men who were trained in First Aid and Emergency Preparedness (Eagle-required merit badges).
How about Friendly? (“He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.”) Since when is that something to take issue with? Listen, I understand introverted. Introverted, though, doesn’t give you license to be mean to people. Maybe it would help to think of “Friendly” as “don’t be mean.”
Courteous. (“He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.”) The next time you’re out on the road, pause to consider whether that experience could be better with a little more courtesy in the world.
I guess my point with all of these is that if you’re looking for the worst possible connotation of each of these words, then you can find fault with just about every one of them. If you’re really Doing Your Best (which is, in fact, part of Cub Scouts), then you’re looking for the best in all of the points of the Law, and you’re looking for the best in the people around you.
The second think I’d like to ask of you is that you remember that although Scouting is an international organization, you’ll find that there’s a lot of local variation and influence, including the influence that you can have on your son and any organization he’s a part of.
In my experience, kids whose parents are an active part of their boys’ Scouting experience are more involved in Scouts and happier in Scouts. This also helps you stay connected with your son’s progress, surroundings, and experiences, which strengthens your ties to your son.
It’s really important, when picking a Scouting organization for your son, that you consider at least a couple different Packs or Troops and choose one that’s a good fit for your son. You may see that some Troops pick outings and activities that aren’t really up your son’s alley, but others are more compatible. If religion is a hot button for you, you’ll find that some organizations are a lot more religiously-focused, and some really de-emphasize it. Shop around, because your experience will vary greatly from organization to organization.
Once you’ve picked an organization, you can do a lot to help it move in a direction you consider positive by getting involved. Sit on the Troop Committee, or maybe sign up to be a merit badge counselor. Incidentally, you’ll immediately learn about the practices in place in the BSA that are intended to deal with the pedophilia incidents you cited. In the case of my son’s Troop, nothing could increase my personal comfort level more than spending time in meetings and campouts and witnessing how seriously his Troop treats safety procedures, including two-deep leadership practices. Knowledge is power, and you’ll have a lot more tangible knowledge if you’re present in your son’s organization.
How much better could Scouting be if you got involved and made the good parts of it better? I understand that there are parts of Scouting that are arbitrarily exclusionary, and I think Scouting would be a better, more relevant organization if it found a way to deal with those issues. Like any large organization, though, it’s going to take time to make changes, and you’ll have far more influence as a positively-oriented example of the best Scouting has to offer.
In the mean time, Scouting is doing a lot to help a lot of boys grow into really awesome young men. It’s difficult to appreciate that until you see a clumsy, awkward, introverted kid enter Scouting and grow into a confident, worthy leader, but it’s as clear as day when you attend an Eagle Scout Court of Honor.
I hope you have a chance to see that growth in your own boys.
What Mr. Lambert said. Good stuff. (Sorry I didn’t call out this fine post — it appeared while I was composing mine, below.)
Very well written! I completely agree with everything Mr. Lambert said. I have seen the same growth with my sons and their friends, and it is a good thing all around.
I would very much also recommend looking around for a unit that works for your son (and you). Most towns have two or more Packs and at least one Troop, so there is usually a choice.
For what it’s worth, Cub Scouts is an international organization and differs country to country.
My son is a Cub Scout in Canada, where the Cub Law is different. Here, it is simply “The Cub respects the Old Wolf; The Cub respects himself/herself.”
On the other hand, while cub packs welcome folk of all religions, the Cub Promis is not welcoming for athiests: “I promise to do my best
To love and serve God, to do my duty to the Queen;
To keep the law of the Wolf Cub pack,
And to do a good turn for somebody every day”
For what it’s worth, Cub Scouts is an international organization and differs country to country.
My son is a Cub Scout in Canada, where the Cub Law is different. Here, it is simply “The Cub respects the Old Wolf; The Cub respects himself/herself.”
On the other hand, while cub packs welcome folk of all religions, the Cub Promis is not welcoming for athiests: “I promise to do my best
To love and serve God, to do my duty to the Queen;
To keep the law of the Wolf Cub pack,
And to do a good turn for somebody every day”
Kate Miller> since my son has a scorching good time there with his friends, we acquiesced. My beef is with the national office.
Kate, with a PhD in demography, I fear you may be overthinking the cultural bogeyman that BSA represents in your mind. You “acquiesced” to letting your son get involved with an organization you already have a “beef” with? This does not sound like the “open minded” ethic you wish the organization was promoting – just sayin.
Thanks to Todd G for providing some context to the discussion. I’ll revisit some of his points, in case it is helpful:
1) Cub Scouts don’t start learning about the 12 points of the Scout Law until they are almost aged out of the Cub program (Webelos are 4th and 5th graders.) And their handbook, which introduces the Scout Law to them, also provides some exposition on what the points mean.
http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bslaw.asp
For example:
Trustworthy – A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises…
Loyal – A Scout is true to his family, friends…
Helpful – A Scout cares about other people. He willingly volunteers…
Friendly – A Scout … offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.
Courteous – A Scout … knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.
Kind – A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle…
Obedient – A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop… (note that family is first!)
Cheerful – A Scout looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way…
Thrifty – A Scout … protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
Brave – A Scout … has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.
Clean – A Scout … chooses the company of those who live by high standards. (note standards are individually chosen, not specified)
Reverent – A Scout … respects the beliefs of others.
1a) While your revised list is a fine list of personal qualities, it emphasizes uniqueness, and does not really drive home the importance of teamwork and service that are, frankly, the most important aspects of the Scouting program, at least at the Boy Scout level. “Helpful” and “collaborative” don’t really cover the same ground as “Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful” (the first three are all about teamwork!)
While the first 3 points of the Scout Law emphasize teamwork, the first 6 (!) points of your revised law emphasize personal empowerment:
“inquisitive, creative, open-minded, resilient, resourceful, confident”
I’ll go further to say that I’m unaware of ANY other youth program that does more to instill personal empowerment than Boy Scouting does. If your son stays with Scouting a few more years and ends up camping with his Boy Scout Patrol, he’ll be making his own goals, planning his pursuits, and working together to achieve them with his peers. He’ll learn the lessons of teamwork and servant leadership. And become profoundly resiliant, resourceful and confident as a result.
2) There are no membership restrictions for youth in Cub Scouting or in Boy Scouting, other than age and gender. And Venture Crews (sorta kinda like Boy Scout Troops) are co-ed. If you like to do the things that Scouts do, then you are welcomed to join. Period.
3) Despite the “quasi-military uniforms,” there are VAST differences in Scouting from one unit to another. The program itself is essentially a franchise which charter partners subscribe to. Most units are chartered to various churches, but others are chartered to VFW Posts, or other community organizations including “Friends of Troop xyz” groups whose sole purpose is to charter a unit. And among the many churches who charter units, many are no more involved with the Cub Pack or Troop than they are with the Daycare business that also uses their facilities 5 days/week. The level of religiosity that is delivered is VERY dependent on the charter organization. A great many units steer clear of religious discussion, opting instead for much more general notions of sprituality, connectedness, and appreciation of the natural world. Baden Powell himself said that the “religion of the backwoods” is enough. For others, the Scouting program is an extension of their own youth programs and is more religiously oriented. This is the beauty of the franchise model – you can choose the unit whose leadership and Scouting style suits you best.
Note that this is the very opposite of rigid National Office programming. Units have individual personalities – different characteristics and emphasis.
I hope you and your son continue to have fun Scouting. If you are not having fun, then you are not doing it right 🙂
Kate Miller> since my son has a scorching good time there with his friends, we acquiesced. My beef is with the national office.
Kate, with a PhD in demography, I fear you may be overthinking the cultural bogeyman that BSA represents in your mind. You “acquiesced” to letting your son get involved with an organization you already have a “beef” with? This does not sound like the “open minded” ethic you wish the organization was promoting – just sayin.
Thanks to Todd G for providing some context to the discussion. I’ll revisit some of his points, in case it is helpful:
1) Cub Scouts don’t start learning about the 12 points of the Scout Law until they are almost aged out of the Cub program (Webelos are 4th and 5th graders.) And their handbook, which introduces the Scout Law to them, also provides some exposition on what the points mean.
http://www.usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bslaw.asp
For example:
Trustworthy – A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises…
Loyal – A Scout is true to his family, friends…
Helpful – A Scout cares about other people. He willingly volunteers…
Friendly – A Scout … offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.
Courteous – A Scout … knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.
Kind – A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle…
Obedient – A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop… (note that family is first!)
Cheerful – A Scout looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way…
Thrifty – A Scout … protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
Brave – A Scout … has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.
Clean – A Scout … chooses the company of those who live by high standards. (note standards are individually chosen, not specified)
Reverent – A Scout … respects the beliefs of others.
1a) While your revised list is a fine list of personal qualities, it emphasizes uniqueness, and does not really drive home the importance of teamwork and service that are, frankly, the most important aspects of the Scouting program, at least at the Boy Scout level. “Helpful” and “collaborative” don’t really cover the same ground as “Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful” (the first three are all about teamwork!)
While the first 3 points of the Scout Law emphasize teamwork, the first 6 (!) points of your revised law emphasize personal empowerment:
“inquisitive, creative, open-minded, resilient, resourceful, confident”
I’ll go further to say that I’m unaware of ANY other youth program that does more to instill personal empowerment than Boy Scouting does. If your son stays with Scouting a few more years and ends up camping with his Boy Scout Patrol, he’ll be making his own goals, planning his pursuits, and working together to achieve them with his peers. He’ll learn the lessons of teamwork and servant leadership. And become profoundly resiliant, resourceful and confident as a result.
2) There are no membership restrictions for youth in Cub Scouting or in Boy Scouting, other than age and gender. And Venture Crews (sorta kinda like Boy Scout Troops) are co-ed. If you like to do the things that Scouts do, then you are welcomed to join. Period.
3) Despite the “quasi-military uniforms,” there are VAST differences in Scouting from one unit to another. The program itself is essentially a franchise which charter partners subscribe to. Most units are chartered to various churches, but others are chartered to VFW Posts, or other community organizations including “Friends of Troop xyz” groups whose sole purpose is to charter a unit. And among the many churches who charter units, many are no more involved with the Cub Pack or Troop than they are with the Daycare business that also uses their facilities 5 days/week. The level of religiosity that is delivered is VERY dependent on the charter organization. A great many units steer clear of religious discussion, opting instead for much more general notions of sprituality, connectedness, and appreciation of the natural world. Baden Powell himself said that the “religion of the backwoods” is enough. For others, the Scouting program is an extension of their own youth programs and is more religiously oriented. This is the beauty of the franchise model – you can choose the unit whose leadership and Scouting style suits you best.
Note that this is the very opposite of rigid National Office programming. Units have individual personalities – different characteristics and emphasis.
I hope you and your son continue to have fun Scouting. If you are not having fun, then you are not doing it right 🙂
I’m an Eagle Scout. And since we seem to be naming dates, I earned my Eagle award in 1991.
(Actually, I’d argue that I earned it in 1987, but that’s a different story.)
Anyway …
You’re more than a little paranoid to see “courteous” as somehow submitting to brainwashing. Loyalty and obedience are virtues, though one does have to learn how to use them correctly. As was noted above, bravery has something to do with that.
The Scout Law is a 12-point statement, it’s not an entire thesis on human behavior.
So, while “brave” might sound like “skateboard off a skyscraper,” there is no point that says “stupid.”
The Scout Handbook does elaborate on all of these points, and discusses such things as how to respond to abuse, even within the troop or pack.
Again, the Scout Law is a short statement, not a complete legal system.
I have no particular problem with your revised version, but I don’t object to the current Law, either. As long as what we’re discussing are actual virtues, I’m not too concerned about what they are.
If, however, you can’t get your politics out of the way of your child’s activities, then that’s pretty much your problem.
Ken, I find your comment below perplexing:
“If, however, you can’t get your politics out of the way of your child’s activities, then that’s pretty much your problem.”
Are you suggesting that a parent should set aside his or her values when making decisions about what activities their children undertake? If not, then please help me understand what you mean by “politics” in that statement.
From my perspective, Kate’s post was about navigating the challenges presented to parents by social institutions for children whose values do not precisely echo their own. That’s not just Kate’s problem; it’s every parent’s problem.
One way of doing so is to refuse to allow your children to participate, which is the way I indicated in my earlier comment I would respond if one of my sons expressed an interest in Cub Scouts. Kate found another way — using her son’s participation as an opportunity to teach him to think critically about an institution’s values rather than simply buying into them lock, stock and barrel. As I said above, I think that’s a laudable response as well. Would that all children — and all adults! — gave these issues careful and repeated consideration.
….and I do think it’s important to teach our children to look at the broader picture. Personally, I decided to help them look into the organization in more detail than the “look at us being outdoorsy, we’re so cool!” promotional materials shown to them at school, figure out what the group was about, and let them make up their own minds. Growing up with minority religious views, it’s important for them to consider whether they want to try participating in an organization with policies like these (the BSA is not the only one, as you grow you run into other private but semi-public organizations that act similarly) for the social benefits and see what it’s like or whether they want to make a choice that might be seen as unpopular or have some pressure associated with it in order to stay true to themselves and/or not lie when taking an oath, etc. Sometimes such positions are uncomfortable, but that’s part of life that my kids need to learn about too. They start learning those lessons early, in Kindergarten at the public school if not before. My children’s perspective was that the social benefits were not worth the sacrifices they would have to make and the awkwardness of having to pretend to be someone they’re not.
If they make the decision to join, I want it to at least be an informed decision so that they *are* doing that critical thinking rather than just falling into something that’s going to pressure them in ways that don’t gel well with our family’s values. Among other things our family values critical thinking, which means that we’re not always going to be accepting promotional materials at face value. We do the same with other groups they’ve joined — poke around the promotional materials and the web site, and then if we like those go to a meeting or two to see what we think before proceeding.
You both have valid points. Bottom line: We as parents all have an obligation to support our children in their growth. We all get to make decisions as to choices in their life, and get to choose how much control to exert over their choices. If your child comes home and says “I want to join organization XYZ”, we get to choose how we handle that. All of our choices are based on our personal experiences and values.
Allyson, I’m sorry you had such a terrible time as a child in Scouts, that is awful, and I can appreciate how you came to your stance. I wouldn’t expect anyone to like anything associated with experiences like that.
Allison and others, bottom line: You have to decide if an organization (or, really, any activity) is a good fit for your child. If yes, great, join, have fun! If not, great! ignore it and don’t participate. That doesn’t mean that an organization or activity isn’t a good fit for someone else.
Disclaimer: I got my Eagle Scout in 1983. I’ve been a Cub Scout and Boy Scout leader for at least 8 years.
I’m an Eagle Scout. And since we seem to be naming dates, I earned my Eagle award in 1991.
(Actually, I’d argue that I earned it in 1987, but that’s a different story.)
Anyway …
You’re more than a little paranoid to see “courteous” as somehow submitting to brainwashing. Loyalty and obedience are virtues, though one does have to learn how to use them correctly. As was noted above, bravery has something to do with that.
The Scout Law is a 12-point statement, it’s not an entire thesis on human behavior.
So, while “brave” might sound like “skateboard off a skyscraper,” there is no point that says “stupid.”
The Scout Handbook does elaborate on all of these points, and discusses such things as how to respond to abuse, even within the troop or pack.
Again, the Scout Law is a short statement, not a complete legal system.
I have no particular problem with your revised version, but I don’t object to the current Law, either. As long as what we’re discussing are actual virtues, I’m not too concerned about what they are.
If, however, you can’t get your politics out of the way of your child’s activities, then that’s pretty much your problem.
Ken, I find your comment below perplexing:
“If, however, you can’t get your politics out of the way of your child’s activities, then that’s pretty much your problem.”
Are you suggesting that a parent should set aside his or her values when making decisions about what activities their children undertake? If not, then please help me understand what you mean by “politics” in that statement.
From my perspective, Kate’s post was about navigating the challenges presented to parents by social institutions for children whose values do not precisely echo their own. That’s not just Kate’s problem; it’s every parent’s problem.
One way of doing so is to refuse to allow your children to participate, which is the way I indicated in my earlier comment I would respond if one of my sons expressed an interest in Cub Scouts. Kate found another way — using her son’s participation as an opportunity to teach him to think critically about an institution’s values rather than simply buying into them lock, stock and barrel. As I said above, I think that’s a laudable response as well. Would that all children — and all adults! — gave these issues careful and repeated consideration.
….and I do think it’s important to teach our children to look at the broader picture. Personally, I decided to help them look into the organization in more detail than the “look at us being outdoorsy, we’re so cool!” promotional materials shown to them at school, figure out what the group was about, and let them make up their own minds. Growing up with minority religious views, it’s important for them to consider whether they want to try participating in an organization with policies like these (the BSA is not the only one, as you grow you run into other private but semi-public organizations that act similarly) for the social benefits and see what it’s like or whether they want to make a choice that might be seen as unpopular or have some pressure associated with it in order to stay true to themselves and/or not lie when taking an oath, etc. Sometimes such positions are uncomfortable, but that’s part of life that my kids need to learn about too. They start learning those lessons early, in Kindergarten at the public school if not before. My children’s perspective was that the social benefits were not worth the sacrifices they would have to make and the awkwardness of having to pretend to be someone they’re not.
If they make the decision to join, I want it to at least be an informed decision so that they *are* doing that critical thinking rather than just falling into something that’s going to pressure them in ways that don’t gel well with our family’s values. Among other things our family values critical thinking, which means that we’re not always going to be accepting promotional materials at face value. We do the same with other groups they’ve joined — poke around the promotional materials and the web site, and then if we like those go to a meeting or two to see what we think before proceeding.
You both have valid points. Bottom line: We as parents all have an obligation to support our children in their growth. We all get to make decisions as to choices in their life, and get to choose how much control to exert over their choices. If your child comes home and says “I want to join organization XYZ”, we get to choose how we handle that. All of our choices are based on our personal experiences and values.
Allyson, I’m sorry you had such a terrible time as a child in Scouts, that is awful, and I can appreciate how you came to your stance. I wouldn’t expect anyone to like anything associated with experiences like that.
Allison and others, bottom line: You have to decide if an organization (or, really, any activity) is a good fit for your child. If yes, great, join, have fun! If not, great! ignore it and don’t participate. That doesn’t mean that an organization or activity isn’t a good fit for someone else.
Disclaimer: I got my Eagle Scout in 1983. I’ve been a Cub Scout and Boy Scout leader for at least 8 years.
Pity the fledgling GeekMom bloggers have to go out and have negative attack posts instead of more affirmative positive posts. Why not find and espouse the good and geeky things you have found to work with your kids instead of attacking a group that you have personal problems with?
As has been stated, BSA is a private organization that has a set of beliefs and practices that they feel provide for a solid program to raise up young men. If you disagree with any or all that they do, find or start another organization that is more in line with your personal worldview and beliefs. Cut down the Scout Law to include as many of the traits that you agree with, and/or add your own. If there are enough people who agree then you will have a great group on your hands.
Heck, call it a “Geek Group” and plan monthly meetings, MAKE-style activities, your own badges, futuristic uniforms (if you have uniforms at all), play strategy/German-style games, launch rockets, have pinewood derby races “on steroids”, etc.
It is a shame that you have to attack BSA, religion, people of faith, etc. instead of using your forum for good. If faith-bashing or politics becomes status quo here it’d be a shame with all the potential GeekMom as a concept and a group have to offer.
Pity the fledgling GeekMom bloggers have to go out and have negative attack posts instead of more affirmative positive posts. Why not find and espouse the good and geeky things you have found to work with your kids instead of attacking a group that you have personal problems with?
As has been stated, BSA is a private organization that has a set of beliefs and practices that they feel provide for a solid program to raise up young men. If you disagree with any or all that they do, find or start another organization that is more in line with your personal worldview and beliefs. Cut down the Scout Law to include as many of the traits that you agree with, and/or add your own. If there are enough people who agree then you will have a great group on your hands.
Heck, call it a “Geek Group” and plan monthly meetings, MAKE-style activities, your own badges, futuristic uniforms (if you have uniforms at all), play strategy/German-style games, launch rockets, have pinewood derby races “on steroids”, etc.
It is a shame that you have to attack BSA, religion, people of faith, etc. instead of using your forum for good. If faith-bashing or politics becomes status quo here it’d be a shame with all the potential GeekMom as a concept and a group have to offer.
The attitude you give off isn’t invisible. Your son will know. Your grudging acceptance of his Scouting days won’t be hid from him for long. Your desire to find fault with something he’s excited about will kill the fun for him.
Before that happens, I suggest you look for a Campfire group. Campfire has a similar program, but they are more open to atheists, homosexuals, and girls in their units.
The attitude you give off isn’t invisible. Your son will know. Your grudging acceptance of his Scouting days won’t be hid from him for long. Your desire to find fault with something he’s excited about will kill the fun for him.
Before that happens, I suggest you look for a Campfire group. Campfire has a similar program, but they are more open to atheists, homosexuals, and girls in their units.